I recently did posts on Both Sides of the Arizona “Anti-Gay” Bill SB1062 and a follow up post, How Gay Celibate Bible-Believing Christians are Breaking the Mold of the LGBT vs. Christian Debate. Typically the question brought up (and it’s a good question) when talking about Gay Celibate Christians is why they would keep the term “Gay” if they have chosen not to engage in this lifestyle. The reason I say it’s a good question is because the motive of the question is rooted in Scripture:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
So the question is, why would a someone who used to commit adultery and are now saved and lively purely still call themselves an adulterer (an Adulterer Christian)? And along the same lines: why associate with the sin or the temptation to sin as our title instead of associating with being changed in Christ as our title?
The answer lies in the difference between the noun and the verb of being homosexual. The person and the behavior. The text in 1 Corinthians 6, and all of the Bible’s commands about homosexuality, refer to the verb. The act of homosexual sex, not the attraction. What Christians need to come to the understanding of is that the words temptation and attraction are two different things. I can be attracted to women who aren’t my wife, which is different from being tempted in regards to them (furthermore, temptation is different than sinning). The attraction is simply called being heterosexual (a.k.a. being straight), something that is by no means a sin and something that all heterosexuals use as an identifier. So for a Gay Celibate Christian to keep the term “Gay” or “Homosexual”, they are simply keeping the association of their attraction, something they can’t control, just like they can’t control having blue eyes or being tall. If a Christian argues that they can control their attraction, I strongly advise you to stop this argument because it’s very arrogant (to think you know what someone can and can’t control) and practically it simply isn’t helpful: it only damages bridges to the gospel without ever providing anything helpful. Are there some people who can control their attraction? Sure. And are there many many many who can’t and who have tried over and over again only to be shamed? Yes. And their stories are painful and are many, and most of them involved being rejected by the Christian community, and thus their rejection of God.
It is a simple concession to make in this debate, yet it is crucial: The term homosexual or gay refers to attraction and not behavior. We need to allow people to identify with their attraction, just as we (heterosexuals) are allowed to identify with ours. I hope these words from my Gay Celibate Christian friend Jim Decke (who preached with me on this subject) are helpful:
Labeling myself as a gay Christian is primarily a matter of honesty. Calling myself ex-gay or a former homosexual makes no sense to most people and is confusing and inaccurate–I may be celibate but I am still attracted to other men. The words “homosexual” or “heterosexual” are understood to describe our attractions, not our behavior. For example, a young teenage boy who has never had sex but is only attracted to girls would obviously be called heterosexual. A woman who is only attracted to men may chose to not have sex until she is married. Clearly we would identify this woman as heterosexual. I see this identifier for myself as I do my height, eye color, skin color and German heritage.
I also describe myself as gay because the orientation has been something I have been deeply ashamed of. To be able to identify myself as a gay man, with the understanding that there is no shame in the orientation itself, has been incredibly freeing for me. I am convinced that the Bible does not speak against homosexual attraction or temptation, but that it condemns the behavior. The distinction between attraction and behavior is critical because I have done everything I know of to change the orientation, yet it persists.
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Tried to leave something on the previous post, but not sure if it read well. Like that the label challenges what Christians and nonChristians hold about being gay. In the context of a discussion of sexuality as Jim had mentioned in his comment, honesty calls for it. Appreciate the liberating affect it has for Jim to be who he is and be Christian and not be ashamed. Sometimes ethnic and racial identity has been used as well by some in the church to exclude and crush.
Guess my hope (and previous post) is for the time when this is no longer needed in the body. Find that what the Lord takes account of is a person’s character, and his call to renounce and utterly deny and lose yourself, to hate your life in this world. . . to follow him and become like him. Not sure where identity labels such as above fit. Asked this in the earlier post, but when I meet the
Lord believe that I will be like him, that he will take account of faith in me. . . was I faithful to what he’s given, not that I’m gay. All to say, as a gay guy, find freedom being alive in Christ. . . it’s enough just to be ‘Christian’. All the other stuff, the labels, if they benefit at all, only address the lack in the church and the world. So much on this journey and still working thru things, but not sure if labels are what the Lord intended and if they help his body in this world be one in him. Sometimes think it may be unrealistic to think labels aren’t needed and the body be one, but find in Christ the ideal is not only possible, it’s necessary. . . only thing know to do is press on.
Alan, I completely agree. One day none of this will matter.
Hey man, glad for your comment. . . sometimes seems like not many on this path. Know some of your story from the site, and thinking we may agree on alot. Be really glad that you are part of a body that supports.
Man, would never have chosen this life. . . being gay but not being free/willing to act on it. Have come to know in reality this “body of death” and the sin in my members and the corruption and wasting away of the flesh. . . but also know freedom from that in Christ and so hungering for the redemption of this body. Hope is good but so want the reality. Being alive in Christ is so good, but in this world in this body it’s a battle. So encouraging that you’re there too.
Hi Alan, I’m glad you can be encouraged by Jim’s story. This is why he and I want to write more about it because people need to know they aren’t alone. I agree with your quote “Hope is good but so want the reality. Being alive in Christ is so good, but in this world in this body it’s a battle.” It is a battle for heterosexuals too. I’m not making it a competition by any means, just throwing my empathy in there to say yes fighting against our flesh in this world is tough no matter what. It is good for us to unite in community under Christ and encourage one another to walk in his path; it helps us through the pain, whether that means staying celibate, staying married, or whatever the circumstantial temptations on our plate are, Christ is definitely worth it, we need to be able to strengthen each other in that in positive and not condemning ways as brothers and sisters in Christ.
Noah, you deserve props man, for having Jim upfront and talking the way you do. No competition. . . sex is as sex does, desires can be tough for anyone. Thinking straight guys may have it worse cause it’s supposed to be OK for them in the world.
Walking the road, but man, it’s a narrow road. . . not helping that the world and some churches saying gay sex and marriage is good now. The plus from more tolerance in the world is that maybe the church will see that we’re not what they thought to fear. . . just sinners on the road needing grace in Christ to make it home to God. There’s only one body in Christ. . . helps when brothers and sisters don’t think you’re the black sheep in the family. . . or that you don’t make the cut. Just not helpful to keep pounding that my faults are faulty. Church would do so much more and better being alive in Christ and showing that he’s possible in a genuine way. It’s not the bible anymore that convinces me that gay sex is wrong. . . it’s the living presence of Christ, and his absence when my heart embraces sin.
You are right man. . . so need brothers and sisters and their encouragement and what they can show me of the Lord. Know so little of him and don’t find him in the world. . . so much we have to offer each other.
Hey man, God bless you in Christ to pastor brothers and sisters.
I was going to quote this same line: it’s the living presence of Christ, and his absence when my heart embraces sin. –profound point Alan!
Find that everything with God is living and have a tendency to settle for things becoming words and doctrine. Have my heart set on what’s genuine and living. It’s one of my blind spots to get comfortable too easily with less than the real deal. Not always there but find pressing on a better way to be in this world.
“It’s not the bible anymore that convinces me that gay sex is wrong. . . it’s the living presence of Christ, and his absence when my heart embraces sin.”
Great point. I am with you there. I used to desperately want to the freedom to live my own way, have a boyfriend, etc. Having been through all of that, I know now that it’s not freedom but a prison of shame, broken relationships, division and pain.
“It’s not the bible anymore that convinces me that gay sex is wrong. . . it’s the living presence of Christ, and his absence when my heart embraces sin.”
Great point. I am with you there. I used to desperately want the freedom to live my own way, have a boyfriend, etc. Having been through all of that, I know now that it’s not freedom but a prison of shame, broken relationships, division and pain.
We do agree on alot. . . find that who I am apart from living faith is the worst kind of prison. Have such blind spots when the heart isn’t all in with God. There’s freedom in following. . . not pressing on always seems like falling back.
Hey man, maybe we’re agreeing too much. . . Yankees over Tigers.
Jim will only make fun of you for liking sports. Reds over Yankees and Tigers!!
C’mon, the Yanks without ARod are almost lovable.
Actually I’m from Joisey and a big college Fball fan and have season fix for Rutgers but couldn’t bring myself to say Rutgers over Michigan State.
If Jim makes fun of Rutgers it’s almost like social commentary.
Ya, I think it will take a while for Big Ten fans to acknowledge Rutgers and Maryland enough to talk trash about them!
(though I suppose what I just said is pretty low trash talk!)
You kidding me man. . . I was trying to be all gracious and stuff. There’s a saying from my time down south. . . That’s enough to make a buzzard heave.
Making me do it man. . .
RU 21 – MSU 17. . .
Rose Bowl too!
Then again, no one’s ever told me I have gift of prophecy.
LOL! Very nice. But for the record: I am a Michigan fan living in the enemy territory of Sparty-Land!
According to the Evangelical Institute of Sports Theology, Wolverines are so old covenant. . . creatures with paws being unclean and all. The Scarlet Knights work in old and new being based on the blood.
Advantage: Rutgers 🙂
Couldn’t resist man. . . too much fun.
Been leaving too many posts & will just be reading for awhile. Glad our paths crossed. . . you’re the real deal. Say Hi to Jim Decke.
FYI. . . tried couple times to do blog sign up but never get confirmation email.
Shoot, realized scarlet has to do with sins in the OT and is the color of the beast in Revelation.
Not a theologian either. . .
Hey Alan, no worries on all the comments – I’m grateful for them! I wish more people would comment. Maybe you will be a trendsetter for my blog? Ya I checked my blog subscribers and your email wasn’t on there. It does seem to be working though as someone added in today. Maybe check your Spam folders etc? My blog used to be titled “Cut the Religious Cheese” and so it may show up as that.
Tried again but nada. . . may be because my tablet is android. . . not a tech guy. Not a big deal, bookmarked it. . . not hard to poke the pad.
Glad commenting is OK. . . didn’t want to overstay the welcome. Also, totally on me but didn’t want to hurt your traffic being gay.
BTW thanks for posting the link to the justice conference. Haven’t listened to any sessions yet but checked out resources at the site, specifically films. Have you seen Blood Brother, about Rocky Braat, the twenty something that sells everything for a one way ticket to go live with HIV orphans in India. . . still there after 5+ years. Much more to the story but the guy lives it.
just to doublecheck, I was able to follow the blog using a secondary email of mine. the confirmation email was sent from
donotreply@wordpress.com and was titled: Follow At A Crossroads | Noah Filipiak
Noah, I’ve read through your posts on these topics and have watched your journey over many years. I still find them troublesome…
While I understand and respect where Jim is in his reconciling his faith and sexuality, to hold it up as THE way to reconcile it is damaging to those who aren’t, and will likely never, get there. There are gay Christians who have found a way to reconcile there faith and live fully in their sexuality who love Christ and believe Scripture. I go to a church with a gay pastor who is challenging and loving and biblically accurate. Do you talk to them? Do you listen to their perspective? I wonder, as I read these words and your seeming refusal to accept that people can have such lives.
The other thing I find troublesome in these conversations is your desire to have people have civil and open conversations. Yet, how you frame the discussion makes it difficult for that to happen. When you frame the conversation from a place of, “…the GLBT community from sensible-thinking and biblically-accurate Christians”, you are setting up your perspective as the sensible one, and anything coming from the GLBT community as insensible. That right there shuts down conversation and makes people defensive, and when they respond in such a way, you chide them for their tone. You can’t wrap yourself in “Christian love” while at the same time being condescending…that love comes off as a lie.
It will be interesting where you go as it seems that MI is poised to overturn the gay marriage ban – Thankfully.
Tam, Wow, you are articulate! It’s great to hear from someone who can challenge and encourage others with gentleness. It seems that most of your comment is for Noah but I have a question. You say that holding my choices up as THE way of reconciliation is damaging to others who do not make the same choice. I’ll have to give it some more thought, but I don’t think I am trying to communicate that “my way” is the only way. Everyone is at different stages of growth and maturity in all areas of life. As believers, I hope that we are all growing and maturing towards godliness, but we are surely going to be on different parts of the same path; some further along, some just beginning, etc.
Anyway, my question is, why do you consider a message of believing that homosexual behavior is a sin, and therefore living a celibate life, damaging to others? I would like to think that I am capable of wading through all of the information that is out there and making my own decisions. Actually, I think it is my (and everyone’s) responsibility to do so. I use the Bible, the Holy Spirit, and my conscience as my main direction, while I also listen to the suggestions and wisdom of godly friends and teachers. No one is obligated to agree with me (or Noah), and anyone is free to accept or reject anything we have to say.
Hi Tam, thanks for your comment. I will go back and likely reword this quote to avoid any confusion, I hope this explanation is helpful. When I wrote: “”…the GLBT community from sensible-thinking and biblically-accurate Christians” I was comparing sensible and biblically-accurate Christians (the ones who say homosexual attraction is not wrong) to Christians who are not sensible thinking / who are not biblically accurate –> these are the Christians who say someone is not born gay and that everyone who is gay chooses to be gay and that gay attraction is a sin. That’s why if you read the rest of what you quoted, it says this in parenthesis “the GLBT community from sensible-thinking and biblically-accurate
Christians (different from Christians who say the noun and verb of
homosexuality are the same thing).” I’m sorry it came across the way it did, I hope you now understand what I was trying to say as it gives a completely different angle and hopefully a much softer and more understandable one.
I think what Jim and I are saying is that the choice he is making is THE biblical way. It’s for sure not going to be THE way for everyone. I’m not saying a gay Christian who is married / active is going to hell, I want to be very clear on that. All I’m saying is that they are at a minimum not living up to the Bible’s commands, and more than likely, like your gay pastor, have made a decision that these parts of the Bible are no longer relevant. Again, I’m not saying they aren’t Christians, but I am saying they could not be a member at my church because our membership is based on the entirety of Scripture being God’s word, and members agree to hold one another accountable to the commands of Scripture therein. I would likely refer them to a church that has a similar view of Scripture as they do, which in my opinion, is a selective view of Scripture when it comes to this topic.
I have read the book “Torn” by Justin Lee and I can definitely empathize with his position and I think he and I would make good friends, but I still think he’s wrong on his rationalization of these Scriptures–which I will likely blog on at some point because I think it’s important to this conversation. For me as a pastor, all of my posts on this topic are motivated by the love for the Bible and the need to keep the entire Bible intact as our authority, as it is where we learn who God is and how we are saved and without it we are up a creek. So to see the church select parts as authoritative and others as not is something I’m trying to help with.
As far as the MI gay marriage ban, that’s going to happen eventually. I wrote on that in a previous post if you’re interested: http://www.atacrossroads.net/gay-christian-follow-up-thoughts-on-gay-marriage/
Thank you again for the conversation Tam, I hope my reply is helpful.
Hi All,
This is a bit late. But I wanted to add my two cents in. First, I am a gay man from Utah (no, not Mormon) who is also a Christian and believe along the same lines as Jim. Similar backgrounds. I use the term “gay” just so those reading this response know where I stand. I have passed for straight for many years, and have been married and divorced, and also had been out in the gay scene for a number of years and all that it entails. For me I have been blessed by the grace of Christ and have also chosen a path of following him, leading a chaste and celibate life. I haven’t been always that way (chaste and following Christ).
I have also experienced the churches rejection, or avoidance of the subject, and have found very little support for those of us who choose to follow Christ and still deal with Same Sex Attraction. Thank God in that I think I have finally found a small Christian church that the pastor knows who I am, and willing to walk with me, encourage me in the right path.
First I want to thank Pastor Noah for the approach he has taken. This is what those of us who struggle with SSA but desire to put Christ first in our lives need, SUPPORT AND ENCOURAGEMENT, AND BROTHERLY LOVE. I can see it from you. There needs to be more out there for us. They are far and few.
Next I want to thank Jim for his bravery to be public in his belief and for those of us who believe the same. Yes, THERE ARE gay men and women out there who choose not to submit our bodies, minds, spirits, and lives to the sin of immorality, acting out homosexual sex and idolatry. You also stand as a beacon of encouragement for us that there are others out there. We just need to stand up and be heard.
Tam, I understand what you are saying. But we all must choose our paths and we must make room for everyone. Yes and also for those who choose a different path. I choose, and my brothers and sisters choose to follow Christ and what the Bible declares as pleasing to the Lord and what is not. Those who choose to continue to follow their sexual desires outside of the laws of God can do so if they please. But those who do, DO NOT represent ALL gay men and women ! Therefore for those of US, this is not damaging but ENCOURAGING.
Ray from Utah
This is awesome Ray, thanks so much for chiming in. My hope is that more and more gay men and women such as you and Jim and others will be encouraged by one another’s testimonies in following Christ, and in doing so, will show a true and genuine “third way” for those who have same sex attraction, who can still be true to themselves, but also still follow Christ with integrity AND be fully embraced by the church, just like someone with heterosexual attraction who is tempted (all of us!) would be. Thanks a lot Ray.
Shame people like yall thinking being gay is christian. Yall can keep trying to rewrite the Bible is you may but some true Christian still believe in a thing called hermeneutics
Hi Jake, I get the feeling you are defining “being gay” as someone being attracted to the same sex–that “being gay” means a man who is attracted to another man, whether they are in a relationship or not. I believe in hermeneutics extremely strongly and is a primary motivation of this blog. In this case, I get the sense you are using poor hermeneutics, defining “gay” as something you were taught by a cultural Christianity, not as something actually biblical. I’m wondering if you can share with us where the Bible says that having an uncontrollable attraction to the same gender is a sin. I get the sense you’re either reading my blog posts wrong and you aren’t getting what I’m actually saying, or you’re reading the Bible wrong.